What happens when enterprise buyers no longer trust the endless stream of content, campaigns, and “thought leadership” flooding their inboxes every day? And in a world overwhelmed by AI-generated noise, how can marketers actually build confidence instead of just visibility?
On this episode of Pipeline Brew, Matt Hummel is joined by Jon Buckthorp, Director of Growth & Ventures at Differentiated, a UK B2B marketing and sales agency, for a conversation on why belief is becoming the most important driver in modern decision making.
Drawing from Differentiated’s annual Art & Science research, Jon shares why buyers are increasingly skeptical of performative marketing, how “thought theater” is replacing meaningful thought leadership, and what brands must do differently to stand out.
From pipeline health and buyer psychology to AI transparency and authentic storytelling, Matt and Jon unpack why the future of marketing isn’t actually about creating more content, but instead about creating clearer, authentic experiences. You’ll also hear practical insights on measuring belief, reducing buyer friction, building genuine executive thought leadership, and why the best brands aren’t necessarily the loudest, but the clearest.
Guest Bio
Twenty-five years in the tech and telco sectors provide the wide lens required to navigate what happens next. Jon’s background across corporate leadership, scale-ups, and advisory teams offers a comprehensive, real-world view of the complexities facing global marketing and sales organisations.
He specialises in B2B Art & Science; the delivery of high-impact creative marketing backed by rigorous data and sales team integration. From leadership roles at Vodafone UK and Group to his current work with Differentiated Ltd, JonB Studio, and the Women’s Sports Alliance, Jon bridges strategy and execution.
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Guest Quotes
“The brands that are best aren’t necessarily the loudest, but they are the clearest. They’re investing in real quantitative research, they’re honest about the natural trade-offs that you’re gonna have, and they don’t pretend certainty when nothing exists.”
“If you want visibility, go all out. Be that person, be provocative. Create the drumming gorilla. But if the goal is understanding, ‘Hey, I’ve got a thing I wanna tell you,’ that’s when you get leadership. 83% of buyers only believe thought leadership is useful if it’s grounded in research with real people. So I would say less polish, more substance.”
“Stop asking how do I get more content out, and start asking what would genuinely, and I mean genuinely, help someone decide my product is fit for them. Stop thinking of more, and start thinking of better. Belief is really, really fragile. When you earn it, trust, and therefore growth, will follow.”
Time Stamps
00:00 Episode start
02:00 Ice breaker
03:40 Jon’s background and entrepreneurial journey
06:20 What makes Differentiated different?
10:50 Why belief matters in B2B buying
13:40 Measuring belief through pipeline health
17:00 Why the clearest brands win
19:50 Thought leadership vs. thought theater
23:05 Building authentic executive content
25:20 The future of B2B marketing
29:15 AI, authenticity, and buyer skepticism
32:15 Advice for modern marketers
33:30 What’s on tap for Jon Buckthorp
Links
- Connect with Jon Buckthorp
- Check out Differentiated
- Connect with Matt Hummel on LinkedIn
- Check out Pipeline360
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matt Hummel: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Pipeline Brew, the podcast that meets at the intersection of people and pipeline. We’re bringing you fun, yet insightful conversations where you’ll not only hear from marketing experts, but also get to know them as well.
[00:00:22] Matt Hummel: Hey everyone. Today I’m super excited to be joined by John Luckford. John is the commercial director at Differentiated, the B2B marketing and sales agency that thinks differently. John specializes in the combination of B2B art and science, and brings over two decades of expertise to today’s show. In our conversation, we’re gonna focus on what led John to explore the idea of belief and how critical it is to B2B buying.
[00:00:46] Matt Hummel: I love that. Why many organizations might not actually be creating valuable thought leadership content, but rather thought theater. Also love that. And where marketers should be focusing their efforts over the next few years as buyers [00:01:00] continue to be more overwhelmed than ever before, which is 100% true.
[00:01:04] Matt Hummel: With that, John, welcome to the show. How are you today?
[00:01:08] Jon Buckthorp: I am so good, and excited to be talking about those topics, and I’m sure a lot more, knowing you, Matt. So really excited to be here. Thanks very much for inviting me.
[00:01:18] Matt Hummel: No doubt. Well, I’m glad it only took me two cuts to say your name cor- sort of correctly.
[00:01:25] Matt Hummel: For those who don’t get to hear the outtakes, I called John Bob.
[00:01:29] Jon Buckthorp: I love that
[00:01:29] Matt Hummel: name now. And then as I was- I
[00:01:30] Jon Buckthorp: think I might go by it. Bob. It’s a good ring to it, you know?
[00:01:34] Matt Hummel: It is a great name. I think it’s one of those names that’s, it’s gonna make a comeback- I think so … especially after the show. Well, John, as you know, we like to kick off each episode with a little bit of an icebreaker.
[00:01:44] Matt Hummel: So with that, what is your go-to beverage when you need a little pick me up?
[00:01:48] Jon Buckthorp: Oh, that’s a great question. Definitely the answer is coffee, of a variety of means, and now I’m a bit of a purist-
[00:01:56] Matt Hummel: Okay …
[00:01:56] Jon Buckthorp: so I love a pour over coffee. I grind my own beans. Ooh. I- [00:02:00] I’m that guy. So the brew, in, in, in theme with the brew, I lo- I love a filtered brewed coffee.
[00:02:06] Jon Buckthorp: That is my pick me up every day of the week. Whatever’s closest and strongest doesn’t work for me. Curated and thought about, that’s my coffee of choice.
[00:02:16] Matt Hummel: John, Bob, whatever you want me to call you, I love that. I’m a pour over guy myself, so- Nice … let’s spend a second talking about this, because I wanna know.
[00:02:24] Jon Buckthorp: Please.
[00:02:25] Matt Hummel: So first of all, it’s very rare that I meet someone in the UK, when they think about coffee, they think about American coffee. Now, granted, American coffee is- Like garbage burnt beans Mm … but it’s filter coffee, right? It’s usually espresso drinks. So I’m, first of all, I’m happy to hear you drink filter coffee.
[00:02:42] Matt Hummel: Where do you get your beans? What kind of pour over setup do you have?
[00:02:45] Jon Buckthorp: So we have a local roastery here called 200 Degrees, which is the temperature they roast the beans at. I’m on a monthly subscription of beans from a- they come from across the world. I use a Chemex as my go-to, [00:03:00] and I’m pouring over at 96 degrees on a 500 mil brew.
[00:03:06] Jon Buckthorp: I think that’s even more detail than you expected there, Matt.
[00:03:08] Matt Hummel: No, it’s- it’s not at all. Because as I’ve been teaching my kids, there’s a science to the pour over. It depends on the amount of time that’s passed since the beans were roasted- Yeah … and are they medium roast, are they dark roast? And then you’ve got to- Yes
[00:03:21] Matt Hummel: dial in that exact grind, the water temperature. Do you stir it? Do you shake it? Oh, it’s a science.
[00:03:29] Jon Buckthorp: And an art, some would say.
[00:03:30] Matt Hummel: And an art. You know- Come on … gosh, I… Look, you can thank me later for setting you up there. Well, John, before we talk about what you’re up today, I’d love for you to tell the audience a little bit more about yourself, your passions, your background.
[00:03:43] Jon Buckthorp: Brilliant. M- Matt, I’m privileged to have lived a privileged career. Starting here in the UK in an organization that became global, called Vodafone. They’re a telecommunications provider and have extended across the world. Uh, I started as a Christmas [00:04:00] temp in 1999, which ages me slightly. I worked most sales jobs using skills in every single customer segment, from the smallest one-man band or consumer, all the way to the biggest global M&C, with a variety of sales and marketing jobs between those across the world for 23 years.
[00:04:22] Jon Buckthorp: An absolutely brilliant experience to really learn the craft of what I do today. So as both of those jobs that I’ve done have been both commercial and creative, I guess, I’ve learned the different nuances and the interfaces between them, and I- I genuinely, genuinely, genuinely feel very lucky to have had that path, especially to where I am now at Differentiated.
[00:04:45] Matt Hummel: Ah, I love that. Well, one thing I always like to ask too is, you know, what big lessons or kind of aha moments- Mm … have you had across your career?
[00:04:53] Jon Buckthorp: Uh, y- yeah, and this is true every single day, even now speaking to you, because [00:05:00] whilst we are doing similar activities, we’re on the opposite sides of the world.
[00:05:04] Jon Buckthorp: And regardless of who I’ve met in my career in either a sales or a marketing motion, the one thing that unites everyone is it- people. And people have a wonderful sense of humor. They have stories. They have, they have tales. But in business, you generally categorize people on a job title or persona, as I learnt in my marketing career.
[00:05:28] Matt Hummel: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Jon Buckthorp: But the reality is, deep down, they’re human beings, and they’re motivated by creativity- and innovation. People go, “I like that. Can I have one?” In every stage of their career. So my aha was it doesn’t matter which job you do, people are people at the center. Mm-hmm. And don’t try and group them so much, you know?
[00:05:49] Matt Hummel: I love that. You think about just your social circles, and it’s- Mm … easy to think about, oh, that’s the VP, or, oh, that’s a, that’s an account, whatever. Like-
[00:05:57] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah, right …
[00:05:58] Matt Hummel: these are people, and we think about them [00:06:00] differently. And, and but then taking that thought and translating it back into the business world of-
[00:06:04] Jon Buckthorp: Mm
[00:06:04] Matt Hummel: they’re still people. They’re still motivated, to your point, by creativity and innovation and- Mm … certainly money too. But people wanna do a good job, and so just I think it’s that, again, it’s just another way of thinking about putting the customer’s shoes on and really being empathetic to our buyers in a, in a more practical and pragmatic way.
[00:06:22] Matt Hummel: I love that.
[00:06:22] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah.
[00:06:23] Matt Hummel: Well, before we hit on the bigger topics for today, I’d love to learn more about Differentiated, so how it came to be, and, you know, what do you guys deliver for your customers and partners?
[00:06:33] Jon Buckthorp: Well, after 23 years of working at Vodafone in a variety of jobs in a variety of across the world, my big move into marketing, where my aha moment started to collect, was I ac- I realized you get money and you employ people to help you do creative things.
[00:06:49] Jon Buckthorp: And as it turned out, my first PO or my first purchase was is with now the current CEO and managing director of Differentiated and Different Guys. So I’ve [00:07:00] worked with these folks for over a decade. I was not only one of their first customers, I was also their first senior hire three years ago to join- No kidding
[00:07:10] Jon Buckthorp: to lead the commercial growth of the organization. So I feel I’ve been part of Differentiated or been differentiated for a wee while, but essentially as an organization, we are a B2B exclusive marketing and sales creative agency. The and sales element is key to that because we don’t hand over the pack and walk away.
[00:07:34] Jon Buckthorp: We follow it all the way to the client and often get involved in direct pitch meetings, bringing creativity- Mm … art, science to the story. So our roster of clients and I guess our ICP are those folks that are in the technology, telecoms, and professional services sector, but we’re finding we’re expanding into a variety of different realms.
[00:07:56] Matt Hummel: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Jon Buckthorp: The core services, I guess, that we’re, we’re involved in is, is those [00:08:00] sorts of creative elements, of helping people with brand, with their messaging, with their campaigns, with their demand, ABN, account-based marketing, and deal-based marketing, pursuit marketing. They’re all of interest, but we’re an organization that’s growing, and my new brief is to take on the responsibility for our growth and ventures portfolio, and we’re starting to innovate With new products and services by building, buying, and borrowing from the market.
[00:08:29] Jon Buckthorp: So that’s who we are, and I’m… I genuinely… I hope you can get this through the lens and through your ears, this isn’t an, an effect. I’m genuinely into this job and to what I do- Oh … you know?
[00:08:40] Matt Hummel: It’s quite obvious, and it was quite obvious from the first time I met you, what, few months ago. So I love that. Help me understand a little bit more about the And Sales piece.
[00:08:49] Matt Hummel: What does that actually mean? What do you, what do you guys deliver differently for your customers?
[00:08:53] Jon Buckthorp: So often, if we are in the marketing mix of maybe brand or campaigns, at some point, [00:09:00] we’re often working directly with the field marketing team. That’s where a lot of my experience has been personally, by the way.
[00:09:05] Jon Buckthorp: Those folks are often in our major corporate clients, the folks that have to stitch everything together. They are masters of everything, but owners of not everything. Which is a… I, I wish I’d made a cooler way of saying that. But you know what I mean. So the field marketers essentially are sales’ best friend or their access to the rest of marketing.
[00:09:28] Jon Buckthorp: So by hanging around the field marketing sphere, you really get not only the closest touchpoint in the organization to the sales team, but it also means working directly with the sales team. So to answer your question, it means walking in the shoes of the sales colleague as well as the field marketing colleague to give them access to creativity and innovation.
[00:09:48] Jon Buckthorp: We’re as much of handing over pens for deals as the sales team, especially in deal-based marketing.
[00:09:55] Matt Hummel: And what do you think, you know, just to borrow from your brand name, how do you think [00:10:00] that differentiates what you guys can ultimately deliver to your customers?
[00:10:04] Jon Buckthorp: Street smarts. So our entire leadership team have done the both jobs.
[00:10:09] Jon Buckthorp: We’ve both been commercial people carrying a calculator and a ring binder full of PDFs, as well as a chalkboard… I, I don’t know where this analogy is going. A whiteboard- … and some comics to show the creativity. So we’ve all done both of those jobs. We’re underpinned by corporate standards, yet we’re a relatively small organization, and that’s because of our incredible operations team.
[00:10:33] Jon Buckthorp: But also, we’re governed by a purpose ’cause we’re a certified B Corp organization. Mm. Yep. Yeah. So we care as much about the planet as we do, uh, profit, and that’s our guiding light, our North Star to how we do business.
[00:10:48] Matt Hummel: That’s awesome. Well, I wanna pivot to talking about, you know, something I mentioned earlier, belief when it comes to B2B marketing or buying.
[00:10:55] Matt Hummel: So in a world where, you know, increasing pressures and hard [00:11:00] data is- Mm … driving decision-making, you’ve spoken about the power that belief has in the buying process. What led you down this path?
[00:11:07] Jon Buckthorp: Honestly, it’s the pressures our clients’ buyers are under. So every leader that we talk to is telling us kind of the same thing, like, um- And I’m drowning in all of this information, and I’m starting to lose confidence in what to believe.
[00:11:23] Jon Buckthorp: And our annual research, which is called Art and Science, which is a survey of our clients’ client, showed that 95% of buyers recognized that belief is an important stage before trust
[00:11:35] Matt Hummel: Wow
[00:11:36] Jon Buckthorp: And 94% said trust only starts after you start delivering. And that’s a big deal for someone that’s had a marketing and sales career and got told my job is to create trust.
[00:11:46] Jon Buckthorp: The reality is marketing can’t build trust in the traditional sense, but it can build belief. And it’s… I guess what we’re aiming for is to help buyers feel a little bit more relieved or confident in their decisions. [00:12:00] That’s what I mean by belief.
[00:12:01] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Well, we’ll definitely link to this report, the Art and Science report- Right
[00:12:05] Matt Hummel: in our show notes because I’ve had a chance to look at it, and it’s… First of all, it’s fascinating, but it’s… There’s some really interesting data in there. You mentioned a couple points. Is there anything else that stood out in the research to you that you’d want to highlight?
[00:12:17] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah. The distinction that trust and belief are not the same thing, right?
[00:12:21] Jon Buckthorp: And, and are often conflated. Buyers told us that belief comes before trust. Trust is earned later, but that’s through performance. Even our sales colleagues, you can’t expect to open your, your Macintosh, if that’s a cultural reference, or your Barbour jacket or whatever you’re wearing over there. Um, over there.
[00:12:37] Jon Buckthorp: Sorry. Like you’re in a different planet. You wear clothes. But, but, but you can’t just expect trust and have a bank of watches that you can display. And 89% of the folks that we spoke to told us that if you want to be in this world right now, you need to deliver both artistry and science to create a positive buying experience.
[00:12:59] Jon Buckthorp: The science to give the [00:13:00] credibility and the art the meaning and the confidence. If you separate them and just deliver one, you’re not creating belief. You’re creating noise.
[00:13:08] Matt Hummel: So unpack this a little bit further. How… And I’m sure there’s not a one-size-fits-all, but what are ways in which you’ve seen this idea of belief actually- Mm
[00:13:17] Matt Hummel: get created?
[00:13:20] Jon Buckthorp: Well, it’s a fascinating thing because, again, when we built out this report and we found these questions, we had to really get into the data. And one thing we do in, in the data is we publish all of the sources, so you can get into the actual questions. But really specifically, 56 of the IT decision-makers, they kind of feel more confident than ever.
[00:13:39] Jon Buckthorp: That may be, may be because of the amount of information. But they’re less confident in the reviewing the priorities that they’ve got ahead. So when marketing makes more sense of what actually matters rather than just adding more noise, decisions, decisions in the buyers can move faster, [00:14:00] consensus can be found quicker, deals found more cleanly, and progress is made.
[00:14:05] Jon Buckthorp: And, and essentially, to answer your question, where I think you may get to because this is in your company name, you can measure belief by reduced deal cycles- Mm … fewer stalled opportunities And importantly, stronger internal advocacy and people willing to sign up for case studies, which for anyone that’s ever led a commercial role, you know that’s the gold, right?
[00:14:26] Jon Buckthorp: So that’s, that’s the how you can measure belief.
[00:14:28] Matt Hummel: No, I love that. You took the next question right out of my mouth because I think a lot of people out there could say, “Yeah, yeah, belief sounds good, but it’s hard enough measuring what we have to measure anyways.” Right. How do I actually determine that belief, whatever this belief concept is, is moving the needle?
[00:14:42] Matt Hummel: And you nailed it on the head. I find a lot of things go back to pipeline health. It, it’s sort of- Mm … the clinical private equity business term to call what you just described, which is- Mm … are deals moving faster? ‘Cause pipeline, you know, pipeline is one thing, pipeline quantity is one thing- Mm … but it’s really the health.
[00:14:59] Matt Hummel: [00:15:00] And yes, I, so I love that, and I think really in looking at what impact that this idea of belief is having on, you know, are we winning more deals? Are customers staying around longer? You know, looking at- Mm … lifetime value, are we winning faster? Love that.
[00:15:14] Jon Buckthorp: I think, Matt, if I could just add one more thing as well.
[00:15:17] Jon Buckthorp: I was lucky enough to attend one of your excellent events in the UK where you chaired a fantastic panel of Pipeline 360’s customers. Clearly advocates, by the way. Welcome to you in the shop. But I made a comment at the time that actually the KPIs that which we measure such things, you’ve got me on a soapbox, should be slightly alter and maybe think about the relationship, reputation, and revenue goals broken down by quantitative and qualitative aspects.
[00:15:43] Jon Buckthorp: Because guess what? You can’t control the world, marketing teams. You can’t influence absolutely everyone because LLMs have just changed the world. Anyway, this is an entire different episode maybe, but I just wanted to make that clear.
[00:15:55] Matt Hummel: Well, you’re not wrong. You and I talked about the old three Rs. Yeah. I mean, [00:16:00] throughout my career, the metrics have changed, and it became pipeline attribution and influenced and contributed and this and him.
[00:16:07] Matt Hummel: Mm. All these different things. And there’s probably been five or six times where I’m like, kinda sounds like reputation, relationships, and revenue. Right. And I feel like I’ve come full circle now that, you know, at Pipeline 360, we do a lot more ABM or deal-type marketing. Mm. And it’s all coming back. I’m like, no, this is- Mm
[00:16:27] Matt Hummel: this is how we measure. You know? Yeah. Are we building relationships? Are we strengthening relationships? You know, thinking about reputation, the UK event that you referenced is a great example. That can help- Yeah … strengthen our reputation. We’re in front of 50 decision-makers across organizations. Mm.
[00:16:42] Matt Hummel: Anyways, I digress. So last question on this topic. Are there any brands that you’ve seen, you know, recently truly embody what you’re describing here from a, just this emphasis on belief?
[00:16:54] Jon Buckthorp: It’s a really, really good question, uh, ’cause naturally it’s subjective. So I’m gonna say that it’s not [00:17:00] specific brands, but the brands that are best aren’t necessarily the loudest.
[00:17:05] Matt Hummel: Huh
[00:17:05] Jon Buckthorp: But they are the clearest
[00:17:07] Matt Hummel: Tell me more
[00:17:07] Jon Buckthorp: So it’s the ones that are clear, the ones you don’t have to think about what they’re trying to tell you because you know. So it’s the folks that have got an integrated story from their brand, their creative, all the way down to when you hand over your credit card or you press Ap- your Apple or Google Pay.
[00:17:22] Jon Buckthorp: They’re investing in real quantitative research. They’re honest about the natural trade-offs that you’re gonna have with this by buying this solution, and they maybe don’t pretend certainty when nothing exists. I love this because you want to make people feel smart when they’re down… We call… When- when you’re down the pub or down a bar, right?
[00:17:46] Jon Buckthorp: You wanna, you wanna be the, the expert in the room. So just thinking it through as I was speaking there, the brands that are doing it well, I’m gonna tell you now, there’s a brand in the UK called Up and Running. They own seven [00:18:00] retail running stores across the UK. This is niche. Full of B2B people, by the way.
[00:18:06] Jon Buckthorp: But they, they offer a social run club, a 5K on a Monday at 6:30 for people like me to g- congregate and effectively be around the core product. Never do they try and sell me. Mm. Never do they give me a price book. They invite the brands so I can wear their shoes on the run. What’s happened? In the last two years, I’ve spent thousands of pounds at Up and Running, but they’ve never asked for my money.
[00:18:31] Jon Buckthorp: They’ve just surrounded me and built a community. That is a brand that’s doing it well because they’re making me feel smart, educated, and they’re placing me in a situation I feel comfortable. So my answer actually is Up and Running, the UK retail sports brand.
[00:18:44] Matt Hummel: I love that, and it’s just the concept of, you know, not the loudest but the clearest.
[00:18:49] Matt Hummel: I do some occasional, you know, survey work, and a lot of it is around product marketing where a company will s- they’ll send me two blurbs, two product blurbs, and, you know, one of them is [00:19:00] usually very… It’s really well-written. It’s very catchy and- Mm-hmm … impactful, big language, and then there’s the other that’s generally simpler, and they’re talking to me like, “Hey, we know that, you know, we know that marketing’s hard, and we know that your board is asking for blah, blah, blah, and your sales folks are…”
[00:19:16] Matt Hummel: And you’re like, “This reads to me like someone’s talking to me.” Yeah. And almost every time I’m like, “That one resonates,” because to your earlier point, there’s no question in what they do. I don’t have to filter through like, “What are they actually trying to say here?” Right. And so I think it’s a great…
[00:19:32] Matt Hummel: First of all, it’s a great example, Up and Running, but then I think just unpacking that, how could brands think about that? It’s, it’s the simplicity, and it… As I’ve been doing this kind of survey work, it’s made me go back to the table and say You know, am I marketing it to people that way? Because- Right
[00:19:48] Matt Hummel: if not, then I need to make sure I am drinking my own Kool-Aid here, so-
[00:19:51] Jon Buckthorp: Nice …
[00:19:52] Matt Hummel: great stuff. Well, I wanna transition to the topic that I’ve been super excited to talk to you about- All right … which is thought leadership [00:20:00] versus thought theater.
[00:20:00] Jon Buckthorp: Ah, my favorite. Okay. Yeah. Got
[00:20:02] Matt Hummel: it. So it’s a hot topic right now, whether people realize it or not, and many brands are out there racing to get their CEO or another leader in front of a microphone.
[00:20:11] Matt Hummel: Mm-hmm. But at the same time, you know, many pieces of content posed as thought leadership feel more like- Mm-hmm … theater, which I think- Yeah … is where you got this term. What are your thoughts on this and, and the research that you’ve conducted?
[00:20:22] Jon Buckthorp: Well, this is strategically important, this question, for anyone that’s in the creative production of marketing or sales assets, because it centers on the types of assets people love to read and engage with.
[00:20:34] Jon Buckthorp: So we chart them. We’ve got a stat rank that we’ve had over the course of the year, and, um, product sheets used to be really cool. They’re less cool now because of LLMs. Um, videos were really… But podcasts, by the way, they weren’t hitting three years ago, but I think that was a maturity curve. They are high on a C-suite’s agenda, so well done, by the way, for, for doing that.
[00:20:56] Jon Buckthorp: Thank you very much. But 43% of the buyers that we [00:21:00] spoke to, they rank thought leadership as a top driver of belief, and I think I’ve got my annotation only 43% of buyers ranked thought leadership as a top driver, yet 93% said genuine leadership matters more than ever, so-
[00:21:17] Matt Hummel: Interesting …
[00:21:18] Jon Buckthorp: the analyst community, the CEO, the COO, the chief customer officer, the customers that you serve, that’s when leadership comes out.
[00:21:29] Jon Buckthorp: Because a lot of content looks impressive, but never more in the history of mankind will your savvy buyers see the performative aspect to it. A- authority without evidence doesn’t build belief. It definitely erodes it. And so much so that the tropes of… And I love it, and I’m a huge YouTube consumer, but I’m also a small-time creator of movies myself.
[00:21:52] Jon Buckthorp: But the performative way a thought leadership or influencer video, headline, zoom, punch. It’s a [00:22:00] 15-second sizzle. I can do all of the beats on my hands and write them out. So now even the way that the sort of next level of influence has gone, it’s now performative. So I think we’re in this constant dilemma of just searching for theater, at the thought leadership rather than the theater.
[00:22:16] Jon Buckthorp: It’s the most fascinating topic that I, I speak with customers on a day-to-day basis.
[00:22:22] Matt Hummel: I love that. Let’s get practical on this topic.
[00:22:24] Jon Buckthorp: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:25] Matt Hummel: Yeah. ‘Cause there’s a lot of CEOs, for example, who want the microphone. There’s a lot of CEOs who not only want the microphone, but they wanna be provocative. They wanna be- Yeah.
[00:22:32] Matt Hummel: Sure … disruptive And, and you know, I understand they don’t wanna sound like everyone else. They want to- Mm … and sometimes I think it’s not all altruistic. They wanna build their own brands and, and so on and so forth. I’ve seen it work for certain brands. Sometimes it does feel just like noise out there.
[00:22:49] Matt Hummel: Speaking to marketers, what advice do you have for them, whether they’re trying to proactively build- Mm … you know, more internal SME- Mm … and their own personal brands, [00:23:00] balancing that against it just becoming noise? Like, how would you encourage them to think about it?
[00:23:04] Jon Buckthorp: Start with the intent. So what is the purpose and what is the outcome?
[00:23:09] Jon Buckthorp: And if you want certain things, maybe theater is the right thing. And God bless theater. The theaters are wonderful places. But just know that if you’re going to do… If you want visibility, go all out. Be that person. Be provocative. Create the drumming gorilla. Do the dance. Do the TikTok thing.
[00:23:27] Matt Hummel: Yep.
[00:23:28] Jon Buckthorp: If you want visibility, then go for it, and God bless the creators and makers that do.
[00:23:33] Jon Buckthorp: We love entertainment. But if the goal is understanding, “Hey, I’ve got a thing I wanna tell you,” that’s when you get leadership. So just think, what are you doing it for? And just be honest because both- Yeah … have a play, but the question is around thought leadership. It’s not about the thought theater.
[00:23:50] Jon Buckthorp: There’s a place for thought theater. Remember, it’s just a visibility thing. 83% of buyers only believe thought leadership is, is real or useful if it’s grounded in research [00:24:00] with real people because they also start to know now that research reports are containing synthetic data or imaginary stuff from LLMs.
[00:24:09] Jon Buckthorp: So I would say less polish, more substance, and just think about what it is you wanna get.
[00:24:15] Matt Hummel: I love that. It kind of goes back to when you said when you released the, you know, your annual report, you also released the raw data, the, the questions and the responses. Right. I think that’s… I’ve not heard of that before.
[00:24:25] Matt Hummel: I think that’s fascinating because, to your point, there’s a lot of synthetic data out there. There’s a lot of- Mm … this is where we see the, see the LLMs hallucinating a lot, too. Right. I think people have become lazy with LLMs. Actually, that’s, that’s a fact. Let’s be honest. Yeah. But we saw a stat, I think it was, it was Forrester that said it was over three-quarters of B2B buyers are frustrated with the current state of B2B content, and I thought that was really interesting because it sh- it told me two things.
[00:24:52] Matt Hummel: One, the fact that they’re frustrated means that they still rely on content- Absolutely. Yeah … to help them.
[00:24:59] Jon Buckthorp: Mm. [00:25:00]
[00:25:00] Matt Hummel: But on the flip side, they recognize when it’s junk. Right. And so they’re mo- you know, they’re looking for answers, and they’re not finding them. And so-
[00:25:08] Jon Buckthorp: Right …
[00:25:08] Matt Hummel: it becomes incumbent on us to actually solve that challenge, and-
[00:25:11] Jon Buckthorp: I, I agree
[00:25:12] Jon Buckthorp: so.
[00:25:12] Matt Hummel: All right. I wanna transition to the future of marketing, so.
[00:25:17] Jon Buckthorp: Okay.
[00:25:18] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Let’s just lay it all out.
[00:25:21] Jon Buckthorp: Okay. Sell in.
[00:25:23] Matt Hummel: All right. Here we go. So you know, all the themes we’ve covered, your research- Mm … my research, B2B buyers are more overwhelmed and skeptical than they’ve ever been. How are we as marketers supposed to actually succeed in this new world, and where do you think we should really be focusing our efforts?
[00:25:43] Jon Buckthorp: Straight off the bat, do less, do it better. Right? The answer isn’t more to most things, but especially when it comes to content, do less, do better. Buyers are spending more than two hours a day with my content that I create. That’s [00:26:00] not a problem because obviously cr- creating is great from differentiate, but the problem is decision pressure.
[00:26:06] Jon Buckthorp: Marketeers and sales colleagues maybe need to stop feeding chaos and act as, um… I don’t know if it translates to the US, but when you’re learning to ride a bike, you place what we call stabilizers on the back wheels so you can’t fall over. Yeah, yeah. That could be marketing’s role within this overwhelming sea of content.
[00:26:29] Jon Buckthorp: Get clarity, not certainty, because you are not in the business of certain things. You can’t be. Build belief. Aim for trust after you deliver.
[00:26:40] Matt Hummel: I love that. I was speaking at a discussion late last year in, I think it was Singapore, and, you know, one of the questions that came up was, you know, how can marketers succeed when they’ve got smaller teams and smaller budgets?
[00:26:53] Matt Hummel: And it was- Mm … it was kind of centered around this exact same thing, which is I think it’s actually a good thing in a lot of respects because when, when you had [00:27:00] big teams and big budgets, which by the way, if someone wants to give me a big team and a big budget- Right … call me. Find me on LinkedIn. I’m available.
[00:27:08] Matt Hummel: However, um, just kidding. Pipeline 360. I’m love my job. Love opportunities- I love the off-ramp … to talk with guys like Bob.
[00:27:15] Jon Buckthorp: I, I love the off-ramp that you created there. I know exactly where you were going with this, this you can have all of this, but…
[00:27:23] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing. I’m quite confident it was doing a disservice to our, to our customers, to our buyers because- Mm
[00:27:29] Matt Hummel: what we were doing was just more noise. Noise, noise, noise, noise. More content. Mm. More this, more that. We’re not focusing on their needs. It all goes back to doing less, doing better. I often think about just going back to the basics. Mm. We’ve talked about going back to the basics twice between relationships, revenue, and reputation.
[00:27:47] Jon Buckthorp: Mm.
[00:27:48] Matt Hummel: And just doing the basic things, but doing them really well, and I feel like that’s where I’m seeing companies succeed. Measuring things properly, taking the time to understand your audience, putting [00:28:00] together thoughtful content, thoughtful messaging, engaging customers in way, like the running story you mentioned.
[00:28:05] Matt Hummel: Mm-hmm. Create a community, but do it in an authentic way. Yes, of course, you know, it’s leading to revenue. You’ve spent thousands of pounds there over the past few years. Mm. But they’re being thoughtful in how they approach it and genuine. And whether you spend a, a pound or a dollar there or not, they’re not gonna change their approach because they’re gonna continue to build- belief and trust.
[00:28:25] Matt Hummel: And I just see that more often that’s what resonates. It’s funny, I heard, um, somebody said this at a conference probably seven or eight years ago. They said, “One of the biggest challenges with marketers is that we don’t trust the buyer.” And, you know, we need more. We gotta… Like, I’m gonna pressure this person until they sign the contract.
[00:28:46] Matt Hummel: Right. Like, just trust the buyer and, and create trust so that they, you know, when they’re ready. Right. Of course, you wanna remain visible, blah, blah, but it’s like, just- … slow down. [00:29:00] Right. Understand how decisions are made. Anyways- Yeah … I’ll get off my soapbox now.
[00:29:05] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah. That’s two for this call, right? So, uh-
[00:29:08] Jon Buckthorp: two soapboxes. We’re lining them up here.
[00:29:10] Matt Hummel: Yeah. All right. Well, we can’t go through a podcast without talking about AI. So-
[00:29:16] Jon Buckthorp: Right …
[00:29:17] Matt Hummel: you know, AI seems to be the epitome of a double-edged sword, having created a lot of the overwhelm we’ve discussed. But, you know, it’s also incredible if used correctly. You know- Mm
[00:29:28] Matt Hummel: how do you think teams can or should be leveraging it as they’re moving forward, given the context of all we’ve talked about?
[00:29:35] Jon Buckthorp: Right. Well, I love this stat because I’m always… I’m gonna call a margin of error to make it 100%, but we found that 98% of buyers are already using AI. Th- that’s a definite margin of error of 2%, ’cause 100%- Yes
[00:29:46] Jon Buckthorp: of buyers are using AI, right? But the important thing is, is more than three-quarters of them want some sort of disclosure if it’s getting used in the marketing, um, that you’re sending out. And importantly- Interesting … [00:30:00] 30% said that AI-generated content is actively reducing belief. It’s having a… It’s a growing th- I expect that stat to be bigger next year.
[00:30:09] Jon Buckthorp: So-
[00:30:09] Matt Hummel: Yeah …
[00:30:09] Jon Buckthorp: I suppose if folks are using it, you need to tread very carefully or, and transparently. Without a shadow of a doubt, AI has been one of the greatest lifts in the acceleration of a new industrial revolution, and the ecosystems around the data center and how factories are being built. But e- the acceleration of insight and clarity, if used deceptively, absolutely destroys your credibility.
[00:30:35] Jon Buckthorp: It’s also really, really creepy if you get a little bit too familiar. Yeah, that’s what I don’t like, actually. I don’t like the over- Yeah … familiarity of a large language model thinking they know me. At Differentiate, we’re a Copilot house, and we’re using it effectively. And for our creative services, we’re getting really well into using tools like Midjourney to create- amazing insights.
[00:30:59] Jon Buckthorp: But [00:31:00] we’re fully transparent, fully transparent in our client- our clients are actively encourages to go further, bigger, quicker, wider, and AI is helping us and getting smart in the way that you use AI is clear. And I suppose the soapbox just pulled out slightly. We’ve all had a camera on our phones since at least a few e- editions before the iPhone, so we’re talking 2030.
[00:31:23] Jon Buckthorp: We’re not all professional photographers. So just because you’ve got access, it doesn’t mean you can use things.
[00:31:29] Matt Hummel: True.
[00:31:29] Jon Buckthorp: And that’s the value of where human-centric experience marketing and sales professionals operate in organizations like Powerplant360 and Differentiated, because the human factor gets to blend, sorry for the genuine clang there, the art and science of what people genuinely want.
[00:31:49] Jon Buckthorp: And of course, that includes AI, but includes amazing humans.
[00:31:53] Matt Hummel: Love it. Well, John, I know you’re quite a shy guy. It’s hard for you to have a microphone- Yeah … in front of you. [00:32:00] But-
[00:32:00] Jon Buckthorp: Thank you …
[00:32:00] Matt Hummel: I wanna give you the floor. Right. What advice do you have for the demand marketers out there, the content marketers out there- Mm-hmm
[00:32:07] Matt Hummel: that we’ve not talked about today? What’s one practical thing that they could be doing differently, thinking about differently?
[00:32:13] Jon Buckthorp: Hmm. Well, given I’m so shy, I’ll probably just give a, a standard answer there. A- actually, uh, maybe I should ask Gemini- … ’cause that’ll give something a… Of course not. I suppose, though, if I look back at my career pre-AI in a major corporate where we were engineered to deliver volume of content, it was literally KPI’d- Oh my goodness
[00:32:35] Jon Buckthorp: I would say to the same people, stop asking how do I get more content out, and start asking what would genuinely, and I mean genuinely, help someone decide my product is fit for them.
[00:32:51] Matt Hummel: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:52] Jon Buckthorp: So stop thinking of more and start thinking of better. Actually, it goes to that better. Stop doing more. Do it better.
[00:32:59] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah. Belief is [00:33:00] really, really fragile. When you earn it, trust and therefore growth will follow, but don’t try and, don’t try and think your content i- is gonna get straight to a sale. It’s simply not, and it never has, by the way. It never has.
[00:33:13] Matt Hummel: Agree. Well, and you… And I think you did a great job, whether you knew it or not, of actually defining what is better.
[00:33:20] Matt Hummel: Mm-hmm. The better, it’s an enabler. You are enabling your buyers, you’re guiding your buyers to make a decision. So-
[00:33:26] Jon Buckthorp: Nice …
[00:33:27] Matt Hummel: great advice. Thank you for taking off your, your shy and introverted hat for a couple minutes there. I’ll put it back on
[00:33:33] Jon Buckthorp: now. Thank you. Yeah.
[00:33:33] Matt Hummel: Thank you. Back on. Thank
[00:33:34] Jon Buckthorp: you. Thank you.
[00:33:36] Matt Hummel: All right.
[00:33:36] Matt Hummel: So final segment, what’s on tap? So what’s on tap for John? So at the top of the show, we talked about your, your love, which I appreciated- Mm … of pour over coffee.
[00:33:48] Jon Buckthorp: Mm.
[00:33:48] Matt Hummel: And next time I’m in London, we’re gonna have to have a nice cup of coffee together.
[00:33:52] Jon Buckthorp: I’ve got you. Yeah. I’ve got you.
[00:33:53] Matt Hummel: I appreciate that. So let’s flip the question around.
[00:33:56] Matt Hummel: End of day- You’ve had an exhausting [00:34:00] podcast with some- Mm … US-based guy- Right.
[00:34:02] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah … who,
[00:34:02] Matt Hummel: you know, won’t shut up. What’s your go-to drink to unwind?
[00:34:06] Jon Buckthorp: Um, just thinking it, uh, through. I’m gonna literally think about one now. Uh, for giggles, I would say a glass of freshly poured council champagne. That’s tap water here in the UK.
[00:34:20] Jon Buckthorp: Obviously, it’s a very different thing, but our tap water, council champagne, obviously not that. Council
[00:34:25] Matt Hummel: champagne. Yeah.
[00:34:26] Jon Buckthorp: You can have that for free. I’ve not heard that before. You can use that for free, Matt. Uh, so if it’s not a count- it will be a slight glass of, uh, council champagne to prepare my palate for either one of the two following: a craft beer, an IPA, India pale ale, um, short sized, full of body, full of taste, full of a, uh, a very boring spiel on where it comes from; or a glass of red wine, full-bodied, that I’ll
[00:34:58] Jon Buckthorp: I think I look like a [00:35:00] baddie in a movie sipping. So it’s either one of those two, and of course the glass of council champagne, just to get the palate ready.
[00:35:08] Matt Hummel: So you clear your palate. I need some advice, because I’ve, I’ve had a lot of neck oil in my time- Right … in the UK, and it’s okay. Hm. But I’m an IPA guy.
[00:35:18] Matt Hummel: I need a couple recommendations. What’s a good craft IPA?
[00:35:22] Jon Buckthorp: Well, th- y- you’ve really put me on the spot there, but I love a Bristol-based brewery, Arbor Brewery.
[00:35:31] Matt Hummel: Okay.
[00:35:31] Jon Buckthorp: Regardless of it being an IPA, just check out their, their lens. They serve in five, six, eight mils, uh, or 20 ounces, I think. I can’t … That … Watch someone- I don’t know what a mil is
[00:35:43] Jon Buckthorp: go. Yes. Like a, like a p- a, a- Is that a lot? … pint. Yeah. Very good. Yeah, so, uh, the Arbor Brewery, I would recommend head in that way, and you’ll get a variety of different things. The one thing I would also recommend is, and I think it [00:36:00] came from you guys, is any beer that has the citra hop in it to give that degree of acidity and fruitiness.
[00:36:08] Jon Buckthorp: Um, I’m, I’m, I’m into that as well. So I give you- Love it … three answers then. Sorry.
[00:36:13] Matt Hummel: No, I love it. Well, in the States, we have what we call West Coast IPA, and then more of kind of a- Mm … East Coast or New England style. Right. Do you have kind of regional base flavor profiles that you’re aware of?
[00:36:23] Jon Buckthorp: Um, hello, and welcome to 1992 and the craft ale revolution of Britain.
[00:36:29] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah, we’ve designed … We’re really geo- like you’ve probably realized in, in the UK, Matt, within a short drive, you can change an accent completely. So I’m- Wow … fairly middle England, but w- only, it would only take 50 miles to be in Birmingham, which is very different, 50 miles east to be on the coast, 50 mi- each of those regions have their own type of beer and location.
[00:36:53] Jon Buckthorp: Got it So yes, there’s a whole raft of not just the east or [00:37:00] west, but the, all of the counties of the UK.
[00:37:04] Matt Hummel: I love it. Well, I spent a little time actually in Bristol last year meeting with a customer, and have you spent any time there?
[00:37:10] Jon Buckthorp: I love it. It’s one of my favorite
[00:37:11] Matt Hummel: cities. It’s such a cool, quirky- Right … I mean, getting out of London and going to Bristol was, yeah, I mean, it was awesome.
[00:37:18] Matt Hummel: And I love London- Yeah … but Bristol, I’m like, “I could see myself here. This is really cool.” So- It’s a, it’s, it’s a city of rebels … good to know they’ve got a little craft
[00:37:26] Jon Buckthorp: beer. Yeah. Yes. A city of rebels. Yeah, I love it. I love it there.
[00:37:29] Matt Hummel: I do too. All right, couple more questions for you. Rumor has it you love to travel.
[00:37:34] Jon Buckthorp: Yes.
[00:37:34] Matt Hummel: What are some of your favorite places?
[00:37:36] Jon Buckthorp: Oh, well, genuinely thanks for asking ’cause I’m, I’m, I’m booking something this weekend. My favorite places at the moment, there’s, there’s a function and a form to it. So I’m a park runner. So what park run is, is a three five kilometer run on a Saturday morning.
[00:37:51] Jon Buckthorp: There’s three and a half thousand that occur across the world, and I’m someone that’s collecting the alphabet of park runs at the moment. Oh, how cool. So I travel to get the first letter of [00:38:00] park runs, and I’ve got one left, which is Jesmond Park in Newcastle. And by the time this is in, on air, I’ll have done it.
[00:38:06] Jon Buckthorp: So I’ll have done my first alphabet. Oh. But there’s- Congratulations … uh, thank you very much. There’s runs, uh, across the US, across Australia, and I’m traveling… I have traveled and done runs in Japan. I’ve done it in the Netherlands. I have done it in Ireland, in Scotland, in Wales. We’re going to Italy. Uh, I’m going to Gibraltar.
[00:38:26] Jon Buckthorp: So these sorts of places where I’m doing a run and that sort of thing. But overall, my favorite place in the world that I have traveled was Japan. I came back- Yeah … a different person, Matt. My attitude to life changed a little bit. I became a more, more zen, more serene, more focused. And I’m trying not to be light and dismiss it.
[00:38:44] Jon Buckthorp: I genuinely mean this. Yeah. Japan was magical for me. So yeah, there you go.
[00:38:50] Matt Hummel: I love that. I’ve heard so many people who have been to Japan in the last year who’ve said something similar and-
[00:38:55] Jon Buckthorp: Mm …
[00:38:56] Matt Hummel: yeah, it’s, it’s definitely on my shortlist. My kids now wanna go [00:39:00] ’cause they’ve had some friends go, so yeah. It’s happening.
[00:39:02] Matt Hummel: I had a boss who was Japanese, and he was just different, and I don’t say that in a bad way. It was very, it was very- Mm. I’ve learned a lot from him about how he approached things, how he thought about things. Very thoughtful, and just, yeah, you, you read stories of Japanese sports teams after events- Mm
[00:39:18] Matt Hummel: where they go, they leave their locker room cleaner than when they were there. And just from a cultural perspective, you’re like, “Why do we do things the way we do things?”
[00:39:28] Jon Buckthorp: How about you? Where do you travel? I’m interested, actually. You just made me think. Where, what, what’s your sort of favorite destination?
[00:39:34] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Favorite destination I’ve been to was Tuscany. Uh- Oh, lovely … and I’ve, and I’ve done a little bit of European travel, but Tuscany for me was perfect because it was First of all, it was just beautiful. Mm-hmm. You know, the way everything looked, the way it smelled, the wine country. Mm. Fun fact that I’m, I, I will embarrassingly admit on air, I rented a Vespa and drove through the wine country, and [00:40:00] it was- Wow
[00:40:00] Matt Hummel: incredible and I loved every second of it, and there are no pictures that would ever sh- you, you could ever find- Yeah … with me on a red Vespa. Um- Right. That’s amazing … but it was amazing. And the food, you know, I love their, you know, kind of small portions, but you could get a great, great handmade… It’s, it’s, it’s like, it’s like what you said about marketing.
[00:40:18] Matt Hummel: It’s- Mm … it’s less, but doing it better. That’s, that was my impression of, of Italy. It was phenomenal. So I did just get back with my family from Paris. It was my kids’ first trip to Europe, and I’ve got twin boys who are 13, and I was so thankful because I didn’t know how they would do. You know, it’s a long- Mm
[00:40:35] Matt Hummel: flight from the States. It was a 10-hour, 10 hours on the airplane and- Mm … just the time difference, the, you know, the jet lag. But my kids loved it, and they loved it for all the reasons that I hoped for because they’ve never seen a building older than 20 years. And, you know, all of a sudden they’re surrounded by this gorgeous architecture and incredible history, and they both have been studying World War II in school- Right
[00:40:59] Matt Hummel: which is a [00:41:00] part of our history that- Of course … you know, it’s dark. Uh- Mm … but I think it brought it, it brought it to life for them, and so that was really cool. It was a cool trip for them, great trip for us as a family. So thank you for asking.
[00:41:12] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah, you’re welcome.
[00:41:13] Matt Hummel: Last question for you, ’cause you piqued my interest earlier when you said that you’re a bit of a movie maker yourself.
[00:41:18] Matt Hummel: I love movies. One of my uncles spent his entire career making film, and so he, he sort of embedded in me this love and appreciation for good film and cinematography. So tell me a little bit more about your passion and what do you do there?
[00:41:32] Jon Buckthorp: Well, because of my shying and retiring nature, I have a lot of problem putting myself in front of the camera, uh, or not.
[00:41:40] Jon Buckthorp: But, but like most great books around sports development, it’s a 10,000, 10,000-hour principle. I have spent 10,000 hours long-arming selfie videos over the last- Wow … decade, right? So the practical reality is I’ve done this a lot. So as well as working for Differentiated, I also have my own content [00:42:00] studio which I’ve been working for organizations across the US, across Europe, to help get some of their messages out to market.
[00:42:08] Jon Buckthorp: And that sort of work has enabled me to be different in my Differentiated role, but the, the world has blended, so to speak. So I invested in a drone which I will use for Differentiated work. I’ve got, like, a camera rig. I’m currently in my, my studio at, at home, um, and I incorporate a lot of that work. But, but mainly, and I promise I didn’t…
[00:42:31] Jon Buckthorp: this isn’t scripted, but ma- mainly because the feedback I get from folks is there isn’t any filter between me and you. You, this is you speaking, and if you are into something, you’re gonna tell me about it And if you’re not into something, I don’t expect you really to be talking about it, or at least to be honest.
[00:42:49] Jon Buckthorp: So I suppose I hate the word really now because authenticity is manufactured by thought theater often, but generally just being authentic, but then having some fun about it. It’s a [00:43:00] long way of saying I’ve got the YouTube viewing history from a time of your twin boys, right? My linear TV exposure, even from streaming, is very limited, but my YouTube viewing stats will be off the scale.
[00:43:14] Jon Buckthorp: So I deliberately have created a YouTube aesthetic for LinkedIn video where I am deliberately a relatable everyman in the world of technology, navigating my way through. My job is to help the audience realize that you don’t have to be loads younger, loads older, loads more qualified to understand what I’m talking about.
[00:43:40] Jon Buckthorp: You need to be me and a version of me, and I’m everybody in that character. And I’ve made my studio part of the character and had some fun. So I’m using a YouTube aesthetic on LinkedIn. And finally, it’s because I went to YouTube school and I was the first cohort of the Casey Neistat, one of the [00:44:00] most famous YouTubers ever.
[00:44:01] Jon Buckthorp: I was first cohort of his movie school. So I created movies in the style of Casey Neistat, and that went on to influence everything I’ve done since. This is
[00:44:08] Matt Hummel: fascinating. And we’re gonna have to pick this up over a nice craft brew or a glass of full-bodied red wine. Either one is fantastic for me. I’m
[00:44:16] Jon Buckthorp: down for it.
[00:44:16] Jon Buckthorp: Yeah. I’d love to speak further. I love it. But thanks ever so much.
[00:44:19] Matt Hummel: No. Well, John, this has been truly an amazing conversation, and I just, I can’t thank you enough for coming on, giving up your time, letting me call you Bob for half the show. I love that. And more importantly, just you brought some awesome insights.
[00:44:31] Matt Hummel: You brought true thought leadership, not thought theater to the show. And so thank you so much.
[00:44:36] Jon Buckthorp: You’re so welcome. Thank you very much. And I look forward to that craft ale.
[00:44:40] Matt Hummel: Likewise. Cheers. John. Thanks again to John for joining us on today’s episode of The Pipeline Brew. I hope you all enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.
[00:44:50] Matt Hummel: Please leave me a comment with your thoughts and make sure you subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. Once again, I’m Matt Hummel, and I’ll see you next [00:45:00] time.