As AI continues to infiltrate content programs across B2B marketing, standing out is becoming increasingly difficult as execution is now just one click away. So how can modern marketers use AI effectively while still creating marketing that feels original, relevant, and distinctly human?
On today’s episode of Pipeline Brew, Matt Hummel speaks with Caroline Clark, Managing Director at Radish Agency, to get her thoughts on how marketing teams can avoid falling into the “sea of sameness” as AI adoption reshapes the industry. Caroline shares why human judgement is becoming a true competitive advantage, how marketers can rethink creativity beyond logos and visuals, and why deeper customer understanding matters more than ever.
Additionally, Caroline introduces the concept of “The Missing Middle,” which is the growing concern that entry-level opportunities across industries are disappearing as organizations outsource roles to AI. Why does it matter? Because those early-career positions have traditionally served as critical training grounds for developing future leaders, strategists, and creative thinkers across the industry.
From customer-centric marketing and creative strategy to talent development and the future of agency leadership, this episode offers a thoughtful look at where B2B marketing is headed next.
Guest Bio
Caroline Clark leads Radish, a specialist Creative ABM agency helping ambitious B2B brands turn brand recognition into revenue.
With extensive experience leading global teams and driving growth across complex organisations, she brings together strategy, creativity and commercial thinking to deliver measurable impact. She is also a strong advocate for the future of B2B talent – actively exploring industry-wide initiatives to invest in and nurture emerging talent, strengthen talent clusters, and address the growing gap in mid-level expertise.
At Radish, this ambition sits alongside helping clients win earlier in the buying journey, build belief with the right audiences, and ultimately make standing out pay off.
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Guest Quotes
“Everyone’s talking about personalization at scale, but I just call it generic personalization at scale. The reality is there’s nothing personalized about it anymore, and you’re losing that soul of what’s really going to turn someone’s head. What’s the emotional piece that makes someone genuinely interested, instead of feeling like they’ve received the same message twenty times already today?”
“Everything that AI produces is based on history. If you’re always thinking about the past, that’s certainly not innovative, and I think that’s where the barriers come in. Original thinking and fresh perspectives are still critical if businesses want to move forward and remain relevant.”
“In three to five years’ time, all of that talent that you would typically nurture from entry-level through to middle management…where’s it going to be? We all benefited from those early opportunities, and I think the industry needs to recognize that we have to invest in the next generation now before we wake up and realize there’s no future pipeline of leaders coming through.”
Time Stamps
00:00 Episode start
01:00 Ice Breaker
02:40 Caroline’s background and career journey
08:40 Why Caroline joined Radish Agency
13:00 The rise of AI-driven marketing sameness
15:00 Creativity beyond visuals and branding
16:15 The problem with personalization at scale
18:40 Why marketers need deeper customer insights
20:45 Why human judgment matters more than ever
21:30 AI and the risk of losing original thinking
22:55 Understanding “The Missing Middle”
24:20 Why entry-level marketing roles still matter
29:15 What’s On Tap for Caroline Clark
Links
- Connect with Caroline Clark
- Check out Radish Agency
- Connect with Matt Hummel on LinkedIn
- Check out Pipeline360
Transcript
[00:00:00] Matt Hummel: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Pipeline Brew, the podcast that meets at the intersection of people and pipeline. We’re bringing you fun, yet insightful conversations where you’ll not only hear from marketing experts, but also get to know them as well.
[00:00:21] Matt Hummel: Hey, everyone. Today I am super excited to be joined by Caroline Clark. Caroline is the managing director at the Radish Agency, the ABM and brand agency for global B2B brands who refuse to blend in. Caroline joined the team last year from nearly a decade at MOI Global and brings a wealth of knowledge to today’s show.
[00:00:39] Matt Hummel: In our conversation, we’re gonna focus on how to avoid indistinguishable marketing in a world where it’s easier than ever to execute, why human judgment is more important than ever, and the concept of the missing middle and what the industry risks losing if the issue isn’t addressed. Caroline, welcome to the show.
[00:00:56] Matt Hummel: How are you?
[00:00:57] Caroline Clark: I’m wonderful. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. I’m really [00:01:00] excited about the conversation ahead.
[00:01:01] Matt Hummel: Before we dig into that, I like to start each episode off with a little bit of an icebreaker. So to get the ball rolling, what is your go-to beverage when you need a little pick me up?
[00:01:10] Caroline Clark: Well, I suppose rather boringly I could say it’s just a normal standard coffee.
[00:01:15] Caroline Clark: That’s my caffeine kick up. But actually, my real go-to is squash, orange squash to be exact, which I know we were kind of just mulling it over before, but in America they don’t really know what orange squash is, but it is a big staple fast firm favorite in the UK.
[00:01:30] Matt Hummel: What is it? Is it soda?
[00:01:32] Caroline Clark: No, it’s just water with like some sweetened orange vibe and got a ton of flavors.
[00:01:38] Caroline Clark: I will share some with you. I will send some out to you and you’ll be revolutionized. You’ll never go back.
[00:01:43] Matt Hummel: Oh, well I will be in London in about a month, so perhaps you can save the shipping and just, uh- I
[00:01:48] Caroline Clark: will save the shipping and I’ll buy you some Robinsons. There you go. Perfect.
[00:01:52] Matt Hummel: And so is orange your go-to flavor?
[00:01:54] Caroline Clark: Yeah, I think it probably is actually. Yeah. Very nice. God, I sound so boring, don’t I? It’s very vanilla. I
[00:01:59] Matt Hummel: [00:02:00] mean, no. Well, squash to me is not vanilla because I’ve never heard of it, so I love it. And you mentioned coffee. Yeah. If you were drinking coffee-
[00:02:08] Caroline Clark: So a white Americano, but I used to drink a lot of mochas for my sins.
[00:02:14] Caroline Clark: It was my… And everyone says a mocha is basically someone that doesn’t actually enjoy coffee. They just want- … hot chocolate, then with a little bit of coffee to sound like they’re being really kind of- Right … fancy. Uh, but it is my go-to as well. I, I do love a good mocha.
[00:02:26] Matt Hummel: Ah. Well, I love that, and I’ve not heard of a white Americano.
[00:02:30] Matt Hummel: I know Americano. Is it, is it because you’re pouring milk on it?
[00:02:33] Caroline Clark: Yeah, yeah. Or is it- It’s just- Okay … it’s just a, it’s just a white coffee.
[00:02:36] Matt Hummel: Okay. Well, before we talk about what you’re up to today, I’d love for you to tell the audience a little bit more about yourself, your passions, and your background.
[00:02:43] Caroline Clark: Yeah.
[00:02:43] Caroline Clark: So I mean, professionally speaking, I started in the industry about 15-plus years ago. My kind of background, initially I started out in publishing and, um, this was kind of early 2000s when it was a maternity contract, the recession hit, and I found myself kind of in a bit of a, what do I do [00:03:00] next? And my partner at the time lived up in Glasgow, and I thought, “Do you know what?
[00:03:03] Caroline Clark: I’m, I’m just gonna go up there and see if there’s a job I can get.” And I ended up starting to work for a company called Carnyx. A lot of people in the UK and the US will know the umbrella, um, company called Carnyx, which actually has multiple organizations under there. But one of them is very well known, which is The Drum, which arguably, The Drum magazine, and that was my first foray into B2B marketing and B2C.
[00:03:25] Caroline Clark: Hmm. I then really kind of started working across other kind of B2B agencies and the kind of the rest is history. I guess if you, you asked the question around what makes me tick, if I keep in the thread of the professional vibe, I guess the thing that makes me really tick is it’s more around my, I don’t want to say frustrations, but the challenges I see, the things that really kind of I, I look at and think, “I want to go and solve that.
[00:03:48] Caroline Clark: That’s not quite right.” So throughout my career I’ve always kind of found something that hasn’t necessarily been 100%, so I go and want to, I want to fix it, I want to solve it. Yeah. So throughout my whole career, I’ve kind of moved around doing that, [00:04:00] and that’s how I’ve kind of, I guess, progressed to where I am today.
[00:04:03] Caroline Clark: Personally speaking, I love books. In my personal time, I love cooking. I ended up doing a load of cookery courses during kind of COVID and thereafter because- You had so much time on your hands. Um, so I really kind of got into a lot of the kind of cooking schools that you could do virtually with Prue Leith that, again, in the UK market, um, is quite well-known chef.
[00:04:23] Caroline Clark: And obviously my family is incredibly important, so probably quite mainstream in a lot of sense, but definitely is my passion.
[00:04:30] Matt Hummel: No, I love that, and I think the skill of, you know, being a called a professional fixer is so important because- Yeah … a lot of people, you know, they sort of are like, “What’s my job description?
[00:04:39] Matt Hummel: This is what I do.” And I think especially in the day, you know, today’s day where we have so much AI, which we may get into in a little bit-
[00:04:47] Caroline Clark: Yeah …
[00:04:47] Matt Hummel: you know, having that mindset, and now you’ve got new tools to use at your disposal to go and, and fix stuff. So I think it’s incredibly important.
[00:04:55] Caroline Clark: I think that job description piece is really interesting as well because what is a job description?
[00:04:58] Caroline Clark: I mean, there’s [00:05:00] so- Yeah … you, you kind of look now in the market and everyone’s got this rigid kind of 10 things that you have to do.
[00:05:05] Matt Hummel: Yeah.
[00:05:05] Caroline Clark: And interestingly enough, I always think back to this, and one of your questions, and not to jump ahead, but I know we were talking about it in the lead-up to this around, you know, what’s your kind of a-ha moments?
[00:05:14] Caroline Clark: What are the things that kind of stick with you in your career? And one of them is years and years ago, someone said to me, when it comes to women and they’re going for jobs, they will look at a job description, and it will be, “Here are the 10 things that you have to do,” and there’ll be eight things that a woman will say, “Yes, I can absolutely do that,” but there’ll be two things they can’t, so they won’t go for the job.
[00:05:33] Caroline Clark: Whereas with men, they’ll look at the job description and typically go, “I can’t do those things, but I can do, you know, maybe four or five, but I’m gonna go for the job and I’m gonna smash it.” Because the ambition and the kind of the, the heritage of knowing that you can do something has been intrinsically built into men, I think, from a very early age and for generations.
[00:05:50] Caroline Clark: Whereas now I think that shift is really happening where women are getting much more involved in more senior positions. You know, they are going for stuff. We’re seeing the [00:06:00] ambitions of women being realized. I’m just thinking about when you said about the job description there, I think it’s, it’s very telling how things have moved away from a traditional kind of JD, and we’re seeing that changing constantly at the moment with AI, as you say.
[00:06:13] Matt Hummel: Oh, I love that, and I mean, it’s so cool to hear. It’s something, you know, I’ve not thought about before. Mm. But it is interesting. You know, I was hiring for a role about a year ago, and I’ve got a pretty small team, and so when I hire someone, I’m… you know, it’s hard for me to sort of imagine what’s the right traditional job that I wanna hire for because what I really want is someone to help me grow the business- Yeah
[00:06:34] Matt Hummel: at the end of the day. And, and that’s all I want. Whether they’re good at writing or good at planning events or good at whatever, demand gen, I just want someone who helps me grow and can come in and have that mindset of, let’s understand our customers, and let’s understand what makes them tick, and how we can, you know, best position- Mm
[00:06:49] Matt Hummel: our company. And so this is not what the pod is about, but- … I think the traditional, you know, job descriptions are… there’s some value because to your point, people have skillsets that they’re gonna bring in. You’re [00:07:00] classically trained in one thing versus another. But I think with where we’re going and the resources that most teams have, I think the softer skills and just the ability to take a step back and say- what’s needed to help this company grow Mm-hmm Because that’s, you know, at the end of the day, that’s what everyone’s job is at the company, whether they’re in accounting or marketing or whatever, right?
[00:07:20] Matt Hummel: It’s really to help- Yeah … set up the company and bring in revenue. Everyone just kind of plays a little bit of a different role.
[00:07:25] Caroline Clark: I think that’s why you can’t necessarily always stay in your swim lane. If there’s- Yeah … opportunities and there’s something that makes you go, “I wanna change that, I wanna adapt that, I wanna try out something new.
[00:07:34] Caroline Clark: I wanna get involved in AI. I want to adapt my job description,” I think leaders and businesses should recognize that and be open to those opportunities. I think where people are told, “No, this is, this is your job and this is what you do,” or vice versa, where someone says, “This is the only thing I do. That’s not-” Yep
[00:07:48] Caroline Clark: “in my wheel,” you can’t be that way anymore. You need to be a little bit more curious, a little bit more open to the opportunities that are out there.
[00:07:55] Matt Hummel: Yeah. I had a guy on the podcast recently, we actually just launched his this [00:08:00] week, based on when we’re recording this, but he worked for a startup before he went to work for a very large enterprise organization.
[00:08:06] Matt Hummel: Mm. And it was really fascinating because he has found great success bringing his startup mentality and approach into this enterprise organization. And I’ve worked in both, and I’ve seen people really struggle going to enterprise, where, you know, everything’s about scale and process and this is your job and your swim lane.
[00:08:22] Matt Hummel: Yeah. He’s come in and he’s just said, “Well, I saw something that needed to be done. I saw something that needed to be fixed, saw we didn’t have something in place, and I did it.” And there has been no pushback, and he just k- sort of went in with this mindset and- I love that … he’s found great success. So, totally.
[00:08:36] Matt Hummel: So before we get into the actual topics of today’s pod, tell me a little bit about Radish and after a decade at MOI, why’d you decide to join?
[00:08:44] Caroline Clark: Yeah, I mean, Radish is, um, so actually we’ve evolved our proposition in the, the time that I joined, but to be much more focused and much more specialist. So whereas before Radish was very much around account-based marketing and branding, we absolutely do that, but we’re very, [00:09:00] very key and clear that our proposition is around the 360 of ABM.
[00:09:05] Caroline Clark: We do the end-to-end service offering, but the big thing that’s our distinction compared to our competitors is the creative part. So for Radish, what really excited me about coming in is it’s got a great brand. From a PR perspective, it’s really recognized in the UK. The founders really, uh, you know, they’ve built something really truly special.
[00:09:24] Caroline Clark: The team are ambitious, super talented, come from a really rich background of B2C. You know, they, they’ve got really talented people that h- you know, they’ve done, um, script writing and comedians, et cetera. So you get people that really kind of think about things from a really kind of outside in perspective, and I love that because you get such a rich sense of experience So I guess for me, coming from a slightly larger agency, there’s an opportunity to shape something for the future, to really be focused in a specialist organization that has one key thing that they do really, really well, and build out and upon that.
[00:09:59] Caroline Clark: I guess in the last [00:10:00] five months, where my focus has been looking at the proposition, really making sure that we’re clear about where we’re focused, what our ICP is, who our audience is, um, working from a marketing perspective to really get our message out there, working with the likes of you, having these podcasts.
[00:10:14] Caroline Clark: You know, it’s a great opportunity to really put Radish out there, and, and to be honest, we’ve seen such great success in the last quarter. You know, something’s working. We’re being found in Gemini and Copilot, the AI algorithms that are- Yeah … pulling us in because of the thought leadership and the way we’re promoting ourselves is it’s just a really interesting time, and I just felt that for me being 10 years an organization, you could stay for another 10 years, or as I say, change is the only constant in this world.
[00:10:40] Caroline Clark: You kind of bite the bullet, and you do something that’s a little bit radical. I loved my time at MOI, but I, I haven’t looked back because it’s been something that I could help craft and, and curate with the team here.
[00:10:52] Matt Hummel: Yeah, I love that. No, and I mean, MOI is a great agency. I’ve got some good friends there.
[00:10:57] Matt Hummel: Liz Wood lives not too far from me. Love Liz. [00:11:00] Yeah. But no, I mean, it’s a great step, and I love what you said, too, about being really, really good at one thing. It reminded me, it took me back to when I worked at Thomson Reuters, and one of my bosses there said, “Matt, my one piece of advice for you is pick one thing that you’re really good at- Yeah
[00:11:16] Matt Hummel: and be known for that.” He said, “You’re good at a lot of things, but find your thing and be known for that, and that’ll help- Yeah … create more stickiness.” And I kind of translate that to your lens, you know, as a service provider, and yeah, it’s something that I would imagine helps you, you guys as an agency, especially a smaller agency, really stand out and be known for.
[00:11:33] Caroline Clark: Yeah, absolutely, and I think today in this market, brands are looking for specialist agencies. You know, I think the days of network agencies and brands that are full service or deemed full service are certainly not going away, but they’re not as exciting or as sexy as they used to be. Um, I think, again, because there’s so much kind of expectation around attribution and ROI, I think in order to stay competitive in today’s market, you, you [00:12:00] really need to be focused.
[00:12:00] Caroline Clark: Otherwise, the only way you’d be- you can do that is by having almost, like, siloed agencies within the organizations, being able to, uh, almost be running autonomously in order to stay competitive, to look at pricing models, to look at your rate cards, to do thought leadership, to prospect, all of those things.
[00:12:17] Caroline Clark: Yep. And it becomes almost impossible for one integrated agency, and therein lies the problem because if you are siloed agencies within an organization, you can’t be integrated to the effect that would really benefit an organization or a brand. In my personal opinion
[00:12:33] Matt Hummel: No, I mean, look, I think the data and the market is showing that what you’re saying is true.
[00:12:37] Matt Hummel: Yeah. So really smart approach. Well, and it’s a kind of a good segue into our first topic around, you know, AI is kind of creating a bunch of sameness in the market. And so- Yeah … you know, typically in podcasts, I try to save AI till the end because it is- Mm-hmm … everything everyone talks about. But, you know, there’s so much other relevance to talk through, but in today’s conversation, I think it’s front and center.
[00:12:59] Matt Hummel: [00:13:00] So we know AI has made marketing functions more efficient. Everybody knows that, right? There’s a lot of value from that standpoint on one hand, but we also know differentiation is harder than ever as a result. It’s funny, I was talking to someone at my kids’ track meet last night who is a nurse, has nothing to do with marketing, but we were having the same conversation around how AI has just created everything’s the same.
[00:13:23] Matt Hummel: And she- Yeah … and her daughter, she has a 12-year-old daughter, and her mom used AI to write something, and the daughter was like, “Mom, this sounds like ChatGPT. Are you using ChatGPT to write this?” And- … she was like, “How did you know?” And she said, “Because it sounds like everything else I ever read.” And so it’s just-
[00:13:37] Caroline Clark: She’s like, “Damn it, I’ve
[00:13:38] Matt Hummel: been found out.”
[00:13:39] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Exactly. Um, she’s exposed now. But I mean, it’s true. And the fact that a mom and her daughter can recognize just how uniform everything sounds, and then you apply that to B2B marketing, where- Yeah … resources are down and expectations are higher, it’s a very long intro to the question, but I’d love to get your thoughts on what is going on with, [00:14:00] with AI- Yeah
[00:14:00] Matt Hummel: and just how it’s impacting marketing.
[00:14:03] Caroline Clark: I think it’s a really contextual conversation right now. I’m having it with so many customers, and it wasn’t a long intro. In fact, I think it was very relevant. I think what we’re seeing now is brands have, you know, gone through series and series of redundancies, massive amount of shrinkage in marketing teams.
[00:14:20] Caroline Clark: As you say, the expectations on pipeline return and faster, not even just like, you know, we’re talking to people with, um, you know, kind of ERP, long sales cycles, 12 to 18-plus months, and it’s like, no, we need to show pipeline now. The reality is it’s becoming so hard for marketeers to prove success. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:38] Caroline Clark: So they’ve got, they’ve got less budget, less people, and higher return on investment they’re looking for, so are we… You’ve got to use AI, and it’s there to use and to enable you. So I don’t- judge anyone for using it. I think it’s fantastic, and it’s enabling us, and the efficiencies we’re seeing are incredible.
[00:14:54] Caroline Clark: But I think what you’re right in saying is that we, the sea of sameness, the, the tools and the a- the solutions out there are [00:15:00] all much the same, so if everyone’s got the same tools to use, how do we cut through it? And for me, you have to find different avenues. And I don’t just mean creative in the sense of a visual display and, and a beautiful ad.
[00:15:14] Caroline Clark: Yeah. Yes, that’s one way of cutting through it, being clever with wording and visuals, but also looking at data and tools and technologies that actually can help you creatively go to your audience, think about your buyer, think about the customer you’re, you’re targeting, and try and do it in a slightly different way to what your competitors might be doing.
[00:15:32] Caroline Clark: And I think those are some of the things that we’re really trying to trial with our customers right now, thinking about different channels and platforms. That is d- definitely making a difference, but also, dare I say it, making sure that all of these things that you’re using, you can still look at the ROI and the metrics behind it because ultimately you’re gonna be asked about it.
[00:15:49] Matt Hummel: Yeah.
[00:15:50] Caroline Clark: So I guess that’s definitely something we’re seeing and hearing and, and having multiple conversations about right now in AI.
[00:15:56] Matt Hummel: That makes sense. So creativity, but it- in your view, it doesn’t [00:16:00] just have to be about, I think, the, the traditional way people think about creativity, the ads, the sort of emotive side of it.
[00:16:05] Matt Hummel: Could also just be creativity around, you know, data and the channels that you’re using.
[00:16:10] Caroline Clark: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think being hyper-personalized, ’cause the one thing that … I don’t think this is an expression, but bakes my goat, gets my goat, um, is- I’ve not heard
[00:16:19] Matt Hummel: that expression before … I don’t
[00:16:20] Caroline Clark: think it is an expression, but we’ll go with it.
[00:16:22] Caroline Clark: I love
[00:16:22] Matt Hummel: it.
[00:16:23] Caroline Clark: Gets my goat, is- … this sense of hyper pri- personalization. Everyone’s talking about we can do personalization at scale, but I just call it generic personalization at scale, ’cause really what it is is just AI taking content and just spurting it out in lots of different personas, variants, et cetera.
[00:16:39] Caroline Clark: But the reality is, there’s nothing personalized really about it, and you’re losing that soul of, you know, what’s really gonna turn that person’s head and make them go, “Wow, that’s really curated for me. And do you know what? Yeah, I will give that brand a go.” Yeah. That’s the thing we’re trying to get to.
[00:16:53] Caroline Clark: What’s the emotional piece that’s gonna make someone go, “Yeah, I’m interested,” not- I, yeah … “I’ve received that message 20 [00:17:00] times already today.” Right.
[00:17:01] Matt Hummel: Well, it’s this over-orchestration. You know, you’ve got the combination of AI, which makes everything faster, and everyone now is playing from the same playing field.
[00:17:08] Matt Hummel: But then I just believe with MarTech, which there’s, again, like AI, technology can be great, but I feel like everything’s getting over-orchestrated. I wrote a blog a while ago called Putting the Personal Back in Personalization because people have lost, you know, and now it’s just, it’s very generic and-
[00:17:24] Caroline Clark: I think it’s gonna bounce back.
[00:17:26] Caroline Clark: Yeah. My view is that- It always does … a bit like automation- It always
[00:17:28] Matt Hummel: does …
[00:17:29] Caroline Clark: it does. Like, you think about automation about, what, 10, 15 years ago when it came in, everyone went, “Oh, we’re gonna lose our jobs, and automation’s gonna take over the world” and- Yeah … it just became part and parcel of marketing, and it’s gonna be the same with AI.
[00:17:39] Caroline Clark: That pendulum swing effect is gonna come back the other way- Yep … where we will start to find- It will just be embedded. We’ll stop talking about it as much. It will just become native.
[00:17:47] Matt Hummel: Yeah. So any practical tips for the marketers out there listening? You know, how can they stand out when it comes to whether it’s ABM or more traditional demand programs?
[00:17:56] Caroline Clark: I guess it’s probably similar to what I’ve just said, which is, you know, think [00:18:00] about creativity, not just in a visual sense, but think about it in the data that you’re using, the channels. You know, people will laugh, but, you know, the- yes, we all use LinkedIn and less so X now, but Meta and, and, and, you know, YouTube, et cetera.
[00:18:14] Caroline Clark: But Reddit is definitely on a big push as well. So just thinking about different channels that might make your brand stand out where your customers are going. There’s that element, but the biggest thing for me is remaining authentic. You know, I think of where we’ve seen brands try to shift the needle too much in that creativity, and it’s no longer authentic to their brand, my advice would be just make sure that it’s not too much of a stretch, that it doesn’t feel disingenuous to who you are.
[00:18:37] Matt Hummel: Yeah. You mentioned the word customers, which I know is near and dear to you. How often do you think marketers should be talking to customers? Oh, wow. And what’s the value?
[00:18:46] Caroline Clark: Yeah. If you can, like, every week, every day. Yeah. You know, I mean, the reality is it’s not gonna be every day, but all the time would be my answer.
[00:18:54] Caroline Clark: Because, you know, we talk about customer centricity and being at the heart of everything we do, and if you’re not talking to your [00:19:00] customers, how do you know what, A, makes them tick, where they’re actually interested, where are they spending their time? You can get a lot of these insights, you know, obviously, through various platforms, but your richest source of evidence is from your customers.
[00:19:13] Caroline Clark: One of the things that we do at Radish in, in any kind of discovery workshops, and, and I haven’t seen this at other agencies, but it’s always meticulously done, is that we will always interview sales, product marketing, but customers as well to get insights about the brand- Yeah … before we start any campaign, regardless of what program it is, and it just gives us the really great grounding to understand kind of what- where they are on their journey and what makes them tick and what they stand for, and I think that’s a really important part for any marketeer to get that customer point of view.
[00:19:43] Matt Hummel: I couldn’t agree more, first of all, and I love your answer all the time. ‘Cause I think I, I’ve seen, I’ve seen marketers who it’s like a check the box exercise. I talk to sales. I talk to a customer. And you’re like, “Congratulations.” Yay. You’ve talked to one. Yeah. You’ve gotten one point of view, [00:20:00] and you’ve caught them on one day.
[00:20:01] Matt Hummel: You don’t know what they’re feeling or how they’re thinking. Yeah. So I love that. I think it’s so smart, and I’m still shocked how few marketers actually commit to regularly talking to customers, you know, or sales. They’re, they’re just kind of in their lab, and they’ve got a process, and they’re gonna build and create, and then it’s sort of like, all right, cross my fingers, hope this message works- Yeah
[00:20:21] Matt Hummel: hope this sticks, and it’s like, why wouldn’t you go to the source, to the direct- Yeah … source? So and now with, you know, we’ve got all these call recording, like Gong, for example. Block an hour a week and just listen to what your sales end customers are talking about, and then ask your sales reps to join some calls.
[00:20:39] Caroline Clark: Yeah, I mean- So it’s
[00:20:40] Matt Hummel: not scary
[00:20:41] Caroline Clark: It’s not, it shouldn’t be scary. Um- It shouldn’t be scary. Yeah.
[00:20:44] Matt Hummel: Yeah. All right. Well, I wanna shift to human judgment and get your point of view on why it’s so critical.
[00:20:50] Caroline Clark: It’s essential. I mean, ultimately, with AI being so rife, you know, the only thing we have now to distinguish between what is, A, correct, ’cause, you know, you have the disclaimer on AI that’s [00:21:00] saying sometimes this isn’t correct, so we have to have humans making sure that what is being produced is factual, is evidential, that is, you know, i- is also in, in, in a lot of respects original thinking.
[00:21:12] Caroline Clark: Everything that AI produces is based on history. It’s things that have been, you know, produced in the past. So when we think about judgment, you know, it is so important to make sure that what’s b- being brought forward is nuanced, is contextualized.
[00:21:27] Matt Hummel: I love what you said. All AI is based on history. It’s not something that I’ve thought about before, but I mean, talk about a real potential to stifen…
[00:21:35] Matt Hummel: Is that a word, stifen?
[00:21:37] Caroline Clark: Go with it.
[00:21:38] Matt Hummel: Yeah, get the goat, stifen. We’re just introducing new things on the show. I love that. Stifle. Maybe it’s stifle, I don’t know, to stop innovation. If everything that you’re doing is based on something that’s already been done- Yeah … that’s such an interesting thought.
[00:21:51] Caroline Clark: Yeah, and it’s scary, right?
[00:21:52] Caroline Clark: Because that’s- It is … isn’t that why we get into, certainly from a marketing perspective, that’s the, that’s the exciting part, like [00:22:00] original thinking and coming up with ideas. And even at the top of this conversation we had, right, Matt, is about thinking of solutions and coming up with- Yeah … you know, how do we solve for that?
[00:22:09] Caroline Clark: You know, if you’re always thinking about the past, w- I mean, that is certainly not innovative, and I think that’s where the barriers come in. And I think, you know, when we think about fresh thinking, I also think about talent and people coming through the networks. You know, whatever age group, whether you’re, you know, an older person looking to reenter into marketing, for instance, or, you know, a different sector or, or a junior person coming in, that fresh perspective, that original thinking is so critical to any business being able to, to move forward and, and, and remain fresh.
[00:22:41] Matt Hummel: Yeah. So it’s a great segue to a topic you’ve, you know, written and talked a lot about, the missing middle. So we- you just touched on it a little bit, but just kind of clearly define what you mean by the missing middle when you say that term, and, and why should marketing leaders care?
[00:22:57] Caroline Clark: Yeah, I mean, as you say, I’m…
[00:22:59] Caroline Clark: something I [00:23:00] have been talking about, I feel really passionately about, which is, you know, AI is a wonderful thing, but I think if you look across the network right now and you talk to a lot of marketeers, agencies, and brands alike, everyone’s saying the same thing, which is that we don’t need that entry-level role.
[00:23:16] Caroline Clark: We don’t need those roles anymore because AI can do it. The reality is, in three to five years’ time, all of that talent that you would typically nurture through from entry level through to your kind of middle management, where’s it gonna be? There is not gonna be any talent coming through, and it scares the hell out of me because- I went through that journey.
[00:23:35] Caroline Clark: You probably went through that journey. I think anyone sitting in, in our positions, our age bracket, is probably, has, has done something similar. You know, you, you live and you breathe and you thrive on those entry-level opportunities, people giving you the work experience, the, the first entry-level roles.
[00:23:50] Caroline Clark: And I think The Missing Middle is a, as, I guess as a bit of a rallying cry out to the industry to say that we really need to recognize this now and do something about it. We need to [00:24:00] commit and invest where we can. Not every agency or brand can to the same level, but there needs to be a general kind of sense of community and uniformity around making sure that we can, you know, give the next generation the opportunities that we had, and that’s what The Missing Middle really is all about.
[00:24:16] Matt Hummel: Another panel discussion in London earlier this year, and one of the co- one of the topics that came up was what about our kids who are gonna enter into the workforce? And my kids aren’t, you know, they’re still years away from that. Yeah. Even though, look, I appreciate you saying we’re in the same age bracket.
[00:24:29] Matt Hummel: You are clearly much younger than I am, but thank you. That’s the nicest thing anyone’s said to me, at least today, so thank you.
[00:24:35] Caroline Clark: But no, I mean- I think we’re in the same age bracket? You’ve got no idea.
[00:24:40] Matt Hummel: Not a chance. But it is, it’s, it’s, especially in marketing, and I’m sure there’s other fields, but obviously you and I are both marketeers, but yeah.
[00:24:47] Matt Hummel: Is there some responsibility that as senior- Yeah … leaders we need to take in building up the next generation of talent?
[00:24:53] Caroline Clark: Uh, absolutely, and I think the, the reality is the conversation we’re having is that everyone recognizes it. In some respects, we’re all [00:25:00] parents, know kids coming through. You know, we, nobody’s not affected by this.
[00:25:03] Caroline Clark: And you know- Yeah … I had a, I had a conversation a few weeks ago actually with about 10 other B2B agency leaders in the UK space, and the conversations coming off the back of it was fascinating. I mean, there were a couple of leaders that said they had, um, one of them said their daughter had finished her degree with a first and is working in prep because that’s the only job she can get right now.
[00:25:23] Caroline Clark: Kudos to her for getting a job irrespective and just, you know- Yeah … getting money in. But the reality is how are we in this point where, you know, and it’s not just about graduates, and this is the big distinction. It’s not just about graduates. It’s about anyone that’s looking for that entry level. We can’t ignore it.
[00:25:38] Caroline Clark: We have to open up the field. So one of the things we’re doing at Radish and, and working with other industry leaders right now and, and building a bit more of an industry kind of initiative is looking at what the structure and the formats could be for work placements, three-month placements, paid entries- Mm
[00:25:53] Caroline Clark: et cetera, to just open the field to allow for those roles to come through. You know, and, and I would implore anyone that’s [00:26:00] interested to, to speak to me or to, to anybody else because I do genuinely feel like it’s something we have to do something about now before we get to three or five years’ time and we all sit around and go Where’s my next AD?
[00:26:11] Caroline Clark: Where’s my next senior strategist? Where’s the next level of true leadership as well? Yeah. You know, so yeah, I think it’s something to recognize.
[00:26:18] Matt Hummel: It doesn’t happen overnight. You’ve got to get that … You’ve got to get those reps- Yeah … that early experience and training. Absolutely. So kudos to you guys and your agency for that commitment, so I love that.
[00:26:26] Caroline Clark: Yeah, well, we’ll keep pushing. Hopefully we’ll get- Yeah … a lot of traction.
[00:26:30] Matt Hummel: Well, last section, what’s on tap? So I always like to talk to each of my guests a little bit more than just about their work. You know, you mentioned some stuff at the top of the show around what you were doing during COVID and some of the passions you have, so I’d love to, you know, learn more about you.
[00:26:44] Matt Hummel: At the top of the show, we talked about your favorite pick-me-up beverage, which is orange-flavored squash, which is- It is.
[00:26:51] Caroline Clark: I’m
[00:26:51] Matt Hummel: still drinking it … water with … And by the way, I love your summer vibes cup, even though didn’t you say it’s quite gray- I know … and, uh, overcast in, in London today? No, honestly, the
[00:26:59] Caroline Clark: weather today, and [00:27:00] we, we are Brit- I am British, so I will have to talk about the weather at some point.
[00:27:03] Caroline Clark: It has been a Glaswegian summer. We have had hail, rain, sunshine. It’s beautiful sunshine at the top of this call. It just hailed and it was gray. Oh my gosh. So, um, actually, we’re, we’re having… A Glaswegian summer is, is basically the four seasons wrapped up into one day. I’ve not
[00:27:20] Matt Hummel: heard that. I like it.
[00:27:21] Caroline Clark: I might be making that up.
[00:27:22] Caroline Clark: Okay. So anyone that’s Glaswegian listening to this and they’re like, “Caroline, you are absolutely telling a porky there,” but that’s what I’ve always thought. Porky?
[00:27:29] Matt Hummel: I’ve not heard… So Glaswegian- … porky, get the goat, and s- stipend or stifle, I think.
[00:27:34] Caroline Clark: And squash. There you are- And squash … learning things so much Yeah, we’re gonna have
[00:27:37] Matt Hummel: to, we’re gonna have to AI fact-check this show later
[00:27:38] Matt Hummel: the glossary.
[00:27:40] Caroline Clark: All
[00:27:41] Matt Hummel: right, so flip that question around. Yeah. What’s your go-to beverage after a long day?
[00:27:45] Caroline Clark: Oh, come on, it’s got to be a glass of wine. Yeah. I am a rosé, dry rosé, Côtes de Provence, and, uh, yeah, that is definitely my go-to. In fact- No
[00:27:53] Matt Hummel: hesitation in your answer there … in
[00:27:55] Caroline Clark: 15 minutes, Matt, that, I’m gonna go through the door behind me, and I’m gonna, y- you know, [00:28:00] I’ll probably pop one open.
[00:28:02] Matt Hummel: Good for you. Well, I love it. I am not much of a rosé fan, but I would, I would drink a glass of wine at the end of the day, without question.
[00:28:10] Caroline Clark: Well, when you’re here in a month’s time, w- it’s a date.
[00:28:14] Matt Hummel: Love it. All right. So speaking of dates, I heard your husband is also in marketing, but not only in marketing, but he works for a competitive agency?
[00:28:23] Caroline Clark: He does, yeah. We’ve, we’ve always been in that kind of weird dichotomy where, um, we’ve both been MDs for kind of competitive agencies. And fortunately, there’s only been a couple of times where we’ve actually been in pitches against each other, and we’ve been very kind of like you sit at one end of the table- Yeah
[00:28:39] Caroline Clark: and I sit at the other end, and, uh, try and, like, phase each other out and see who’s doing well or not there. But no, uh, it’s an interesting… ‘Cause obviously you s- he shares so much about the industry, and also you get really good insights about- You know, how are things faring? Are you finding it’s hard? Are you know, seeing an uptick?
[00:28:53] Caroline Clark: What’s, you know, where are the kind of richest inbound inquiries coming from? So you kind of get a sense on where the industry is, and [00:29:00] it’s good and affirming, kind of, you know, where things are buoyant, which I’m- Yeah … pleased to say. I think right now the industry does feel like there’s a, there’s momentum back in the industry, certainly in the UK market, which is phenomenal to see.
[00:29:12] Caroline Clark: But yes, uh, b- he- he’s a good litmus test, put it that way.
[00:29:15] Matt Hummel: I like it. The same boss I referenced earlier, who, you know, told me be good at one thing, he also in his office had a, a, a printed out picture of the head of demand and the CMO at our biggest competitor, and he used it as a dartboard. You know, and I, I thought it was hilarious, but it’s also true.
[00:29:30] Matt Hummel: You know, B2B marketing is small. The world I operate in is even smaller. Agencies, it’s a really small world, and you kind of know everybody. You know- Yeah … it’s like two degrees of or one degree of separation. And yes, there is that element of competition, and I want to take every dollar away from our competitors, but there’s also, the reality is there’s plenty of money to go around.
[00:29:48] Caroline Clark: And you see, Matt, that’s, that’s my point, is that I actually, I don’t wanna take away from competitors in the sense that I sometimes think, you know what, there is plenty to work on. Yeah. I almost feel like where people actively go and poach, such a [00:30:00] shame. I think ethically you don’t need to do that. The beauty of previous conversations around The Missing Middle is agencies actually talking to one another.
[00:30:07] Caroline Clark: Yeah. You know, hiring kids from other agency leaders, you know. I’ve seen that with other agencies, they’re doing that. And I just think, why not? We- are we so risk adverse? Are we so worried that our deepest secrets are gonna be unearthed and shared with the other a- come on. I mean, at the end of the day, we’re all human, and I think it’s- Right
[00:30:24] Caroline Clark: really good that agencies are recognizing we can talk with one another and we can share insights, because ultimately we’re all just trying to do a really good job for our customers and make sure that we’re staying ahead of the curve. Um, so- Well, that’s exactly
[00:30:35] Matt Hummel: it. It’s sort of that collective learning, because in a way, you know, and now again, you mentioned this earlier, agencies aren’t going away, but they’re evolving.
[00:30:42] Matt Hummel: And so sort of how do you think about collectively evolving the industry to make sure that- Yeah … you remain relevant and, and ultimately able to deliver on what your customer’s biggest challenges are?
[00:30:53] Caroline Clark: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:55] Matt Hummel: Kids. You’ve got kids, correct?
[00:30:57] Caroline Clark: I have two step-children and, and my daughter [00:31:00] Izzy.
[00:31:00] Caroline Clark: Izzy is two. My step-kids are 25 and 23, so… Uh, 22, sorry, I should say. So, a, a, a big bracket there. Um- Yeah … but it’s wonderful. Yeah. I mean, they’re fantastic. And, uh- Oh, that’s sweet … yeah. Just one at
[00:31:13] Matt Hummel: home with you guys?
[00:31:14] Caroline Clark: Yes, it is just Izzy at home. Yes. Just Izzy.
[00:31:17] Matt Hummel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just
[00:31:17] Caroline Clark: Izzy. Um, but she, she’s definitely…
[00:31:20] Caroline Clark: I’ve got her party dresses, her princess dresses just over there, and a ton of toys behind me. So what looks like kind of like everything’s below this line of all of her toys. I’ve got train sets on the floor there as well, so-
[00:31:31] Matt Hummel: I love it. So- You could… I think it’s a progression of sessions … I love the name Izzy, too.
[00:31:34] Matt Hummel: So is her, is her full name Isabelle, or is it, is it Izzy? It is Isabelle.
[00:31:37] Caroline Clark: Yeah, yeah. Oh, beautiful name. Isabelle, like…
[00:31:39] Matt Hummel: Yeah. She’s- And what is she into? Everything?
[00:31:42] Caroline Clark: Princesses, dress up, and even, like, bless her, the, the whole… I think she copies my vibe. Make anything, like… I mean, she, trying to get her away from my makeup, um, and my- She’s a girly girl
[00:31:50] Caroline Clark: hair. She’s so girly girl. And she is so extrovert. She is, she’s into singing Frozen at the moment at the top of her lungs. Yeah. Oh, lovely. She can’t fully speak or anything, so she can’t, [00:32:00] like… But honestly, it’s, uh… I’ll see if I can record it and follow up and, and send it to you. It’s hilarious.
[00:32:05] Matt Hummel: That is awesome.
[00:32:07] Matt Hummel: Well, two-year-olds, I have twins, and they’re now 13, but I remember somebody was like, “Oh, your terrible twos.” I’m like, “Yeah,” and then, then three hit, and they, they were terrible. And then four- … which starts with an F appropriately, uh, but I won’t, you know, I won’t go there. But no, kids are great. And I’m… My brother has two girls, and all I can say is I’m so glad I never had a girl because I would be done for.
[00:32:30] Matt Hummel: Just- Oh … whatever, whatever you want, take my wallet. Oh, yeah,
[00:32:33] Caroline Clark: yeah. I’m out. Yeah. So you got twin boys?
[00:32:35] Matt Hummel: Twin boys.
[00:32:36] Caroline Clark: Oh, see, I’m a twin. My sister, um- Oh, you are? Yeah. And I always, it always fascinates me. I mean, she and I are best friends. Like, she’s- Aw … my… So I hope that your, your sons have the same experience. We
[00:32:47] Matt Hummel: hope so, too.
[00:32:50] Matt Hummel: Depends on the day. They’re very, very different. Um- Oh, I
[00:32:53] Caroline Clark: still, I can still tell my sister, like, “I’m not interested in talking to you today because you’ve annoyed me.” So I think it’s the beauty of having that [00:33:00] relationship, um, that honesty. So, yeah. Aw, I
[00:33:02] Matt Hummel: love it. Is she… Does she live in London as well?
[00:33:05] Caroline Clark: No, she lives up in York.
[00:33:06] Caroline Clark: So, um, she’s much further up in the north of England. And, uh- Okay … but I see her, I speak to her every day, two or three times a day. Ah. That’s sweet. Um, yeah. It’s lovely. She’s not in
[00:33:15] Matt Hummel: marketing, is she?
[00:33:16] Caroline Clark: She’s not. No, for her, since she’s gone through a completely different path. She went into criminal psychology- charity kind of homicide support service for victims, and then into therapy now.
[00:33:26] Caroline Clark: So she’s a, her own counselor. She does her thing, and honestly, don’t know how she does it. I mean, um, I swear my life- No kidding … I feel like I do a lot of counseling in my job. Yeah. Um, but certainly, uh, certainly not what she does. Um- Very different. Yeah.
[00:33:39] Matt Hummel: Ah. Well, last question for you. You mentioned top of the show you love to cook.
[00:33:42] Caroline Clark: I do.
[00:33:42] Matt Hummel: Did COVID sort of really push you that direction, or have you always loved it, and what do you like to make?
[00:33:47] Caroline Clark: I’ve always, no, I’ve always been loved doing it, but I think COVID gave me the opportunity to really go, “Do you know what? I’m gonna do something that’s a little bit more focused and, um- Yeah
[00:33:55] Caroline Clark: and, and professional.” What do I love to make? Oh, God. [00:34:00] I mean, I just do everything. I love doing a lot of Thai foods, like pork mince, Thai lettuce wraps, kind of the healthy vibes. Yeah. I can tell you now, I hate baking bread. It’s, like, my worst nemesis. I cannot get it right for the s- for the life of me. And people that can do it, and I walk past bakeries and think, “Kudos to you.”
[00:34:17] Caroline Clark: But it’s my, uh, yeah, it is my, um- It’s your
[00:34:19] Matt Hummel: Achilles heel …
[00:34:20] Caroline Clark: it’s my Achilles heel. That’s the word I’m looking for, Matt. It definitely is. But otherwise, I will cook anything. And every night at my house is buffet night. Uh, so I like to- Ah … cook lots of different things, and then everyone can pick and choose what they want.
[00:34:32] Caroline Clark: So I’m, one of my biggest bugs is when somebody will say, “Here’s what you’re eating today,” and I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t really fancy that- I don’t want that … very well.” So no, everyone gets what they want when they come to my house.
[00:34:42] Matt Hummel: Oh, that’s sweet. Is your daughter a pretty good eater?
[00:34:45] Caroline Clark: Yeah, she does. She loves her food, so that’s good.
[00:34:47] Caroline Clark: Ah. Or she’ll, although every time she comes home, it’s, “Ice cream, ice cream.” I’m like, “Yeah, okay, we’ll get you out of that at some point,” but I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, uh, started that trail already, unfortunately. Ah.
[00:34:57] Matt Hummel: Well, that’s awesome. Well, Caroline, this has been an amazing [00:35:00] conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
[00:35:02] Matt Hummel: I really
[00:35:02] Caroline Clark: enjoyed it. Thank you.
[00:35:06] Matt Hummel: Thanks again to Caroline for joining us on today’s episode of the Pipeline Brew. I hope you all enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Please leave me a comment with your thoughts and make sure you subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode. Once again, I’m Matt Hummel, and I’ll see you next time.